posted by jaseypoo! @ 1:55 AM
Wednesday, June 08, 2005
tales of misadventure in the city of lights.
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11 Comments:
Shy guys are just as much to blame? A guy will always be expected to ask a girl out, no matter how shy he is. A girl has no such pressure. And I feel sorry for all the shy guys I know who work themselves into a wreck trying to ask a girl out.
1) Oh? And guys don't have other things going on as well? "womn don't want to make the first move cos they need to be sure of how a guy feels". That's exactly what I'm complaining about. You don't have to make sure of anything...you hold your breath and take the plunge. You don't go out with the person only if he or she likes you back...because not every guy or girl is going to like you, no matter how much you like him or her back. That's why you also have to ask them out. You get them to know you, to like you. I sure as hell don't feel something for every girl I meet, but if they asked me out I'm more than willing to give them a chance and get to know them.
3)No I'm sorry, I'm sure its real fucking nice and all the whole idea that people don't want to hurt the other's feelings or anything, but if I was dating a girl and she didn't like me anymore, I'd sure as hell want her to hurt my feelings early and end the relationship rather than drag it out over long painful months. And I don't think they've fully thought about the consequences of their actions at all. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but when you no longer share feelings for someone, the way you treat them changes. And they can sense it, notice it. And the poor people are thinking, "What am I doing? why isn't he/she talking to me?" and they're getting HURT. If I just decided to ignore you tomorrow, and not return your calls, wouldn't you be upset? Of course you would be!You can't fake feelings for a person no matter how hard you try, and to do so just makes it even worse. So if you want me to feel sorry for all the boys and girls out there who don't want to hurt their partner's feelings, so instead think giving them the cold shoulder is somehow much better, than I'd say try not to hold your breath.
Lastly, "it doesn't look good to other women if a a female asks a guy out". Why the hell should that ever be a problem.
I'm not saying I've sworn off women or anything. I'm just saying, most women need to grow up and be more mature about these things than these silly adolescent "I like you do you like me?" games. Not every girl is like that. I know a few girls who aren't afraid to ask guys out. And I applaud them for it, and hope maybe I'll meet a girl like that sooner or later. But that's just the minority. I'll admit, society brought us up that way. But no one ever put a gun to our heads and told us to act that way.
P.S That last line is from "Lua" by Bright Eyes
Nope, not upset. I'm just saying, a lot of people need to grow up about these things. You've misinterpreted me entirely. This isn't some impassioned rant brought about by a rejection from a member of the female species. Its just that I've been seeing these things happen all around me and I felt I had to say something. It appears that you are the one thats getting overly emotional about it. In fact, you seem to have missed my point entirely. I don't really have a problem asking out girls at all, so everything you say about being decisive and taking my own advice or whatnot means nothing to me because that's what I already do. If I like a girl, I ask them out. I don't NEED to know whether she definitely likes me back, and I don't NEED to know what my friends think of her, or any other silly things people think are so terribly important to warrant an excuse to not ask that person out. And that's the thing. It seems like most like to play little high school games and no one is ever mature about it. Of course, there's mixed messages, no one does anything about it, its both people's fault and there's more/less info, but isn't that what I'm complaining about? Isn't the whole more/less information exactly the same as "I like him/her, does he/she like me?". Because I sure as hell don't see any difference between the two. Just because that's their reason not to ask someone out doesn't make them any less immature. THAT is why I posted what I posted, because I lament the lack of maturity of people being too scared to bring it out in the open, lest the answer be not what they wanted.
Furthermore, I would go as far as to say you've let emotion cloud your response. If you read the original post very very carefully, you will realise that there was only one passing reference to women being that way, and that it was a mere observation, one which I think most would agree holds true. For the most part I have taken great pains to make sure that people understood I meant BOTH sexes, hence the he/she. There was no malice or anger about, nor was it personal. Yet, you've turned this into another infantile guys vs girls debate, which to be frank I've never ever been too fond of, and as a result diminished what was supposed to be a thought provoking post into another gender battleground.
Lastly, you can choose to blame society,your upbringing and other externalities to explain how you behave, but personally its just another case of avoiding responsibility to me.
While this discussion seems to be a Jason vs Rebecca argument, id like to throw my opinion into mix.
While you both have good points, I personally think the opinions are too polar and too general. Every situation is quite specific and different and require different modes of thinking.
Here are 2 examples:
Eg1) The two of you meet at a bar, club, the internet, friends of friends etc and you find that you’re having a good time, then id ask them for a date. If they do say no for whatever reason, that sort of rejection is somewhat easier to handle and also there aren’t any long term consequences. The two of u part ways and that’s the end of it.
Eg2) The 2 of u have been friends for a long time but now feelings have changed for one or both of you. This situation here is very delicate and can have disastrous consequences on the existing long-term friendship. There’s more to it than just getting over the rejection. I personally would want to find out indirectly whether feelings are mutual (of course, without the other person finding out). If not, then things can continue on the way they were and nothing changes.
While it seems to me the thrust of Jason’s argument is “shrug off the rejection and move on”, rejection is not an easy thing to take and a lot of people may never be able to handle rejection easily. Unfortunately, if you want to wait around for people to “grow up” then you could be waiting a lifetime. I personally don’t think its fair to label everyone else as immature and high-schoolish because they arent comfortable handling these situations in the exact same way you do. I think you should just get in there and be part of the “dating game”. That is just how it works. Alternatively, we could have arranged marriages and that would prevent all these problems!
On the point of “relationships of convenience”, what you’ve said Jase makes perfect sense, but its one of those things where its much easier said than done. There are more factors that come into play besides feelings.
Also, I can see the point about “relationships of convenience” is squarely aimed at me and if so, here’s my defence!
We aren’t in a relationship to start of with-we’re just dating. They are 2 completely different stages and we are not up to the stage of relationship yet and probably never will be at the rate things are going. Again, this “relationship” is different in that we didn’t have feelings to start of with. We had a good conversation together and decided to see each other again to see if anything develops (as opposed to acting on feelings already there). In our case, I told you that while there was an initial physical attraction, ive later discovered that there are “difficulties” with our physical chemistry that I think we cant get over. And it doesn’t help that this potential relationship doesn’t even make my Top 3 priorities at the moment. Truth is, we both aren’t bothered as to what the “official status” is between us primarily because there are no feelings between us yet. If it did progress further, then I would adopt the hardline approach to relationships-dump them if there’s no more spark.
I’d also like to throw in another opinion on an issue that hasn’t been mentioned yet. I think it needs to be pointed out that there must be a physical attraction first and foremost between the two of u. And I would go so far as to suggest you must have sex while dating to ensure the physical chemistry is there. If not, forget it-there will never be a relationship, only friendship.
In summary, relationships are very complex and very different to each other and people will handle things differently.
Its a different way of thinking. While I agree that there are situational factors that complicate things, I don't see how it really affects my argument whatsoever. Case in point is example number 2. My point still stands - that playing around complicating matters doesn't solve anything. If there are truly feelings for the other that extend beyond mere friendship, wouldn't the mature thing be to sit down with that person to discuss it? And that if those two people WERE long term friends, and close, even if the feelings weren't returned, wouldn't both be able to move on past that? When you develop feelings for a friend, you essentially 'reset' your relationship with that person because you view that person in a different way. And personally, unless they discuss it in a mature way, things are bound to be awkward because that person (if not interested) is bound to feel ill at ease unless you bring it all out in the open. What I'm saying is, things can't "continue on the way they were and nothing changes" because something HAS changed. I know I could be waiting a lifetime, and I agree that my opinions can be general. But they are general because, for the most part, they hold true. And I'm not stupid enough to think that everyone will think the way I do.
While when I wrote that post I was for the most part fine (with the exception of irritablity in some parts), what has me angry is that people suddenly think that this is some sort of veiled attack on their behaviour. When I wrote it, it wasn't even in my mind to write it as some sort of attack at specific people. In fact, I didn't really think of anyone at all when i wrote it, mainly just a general sea of faceless nobodies that acted that way. I was bemoaning at the lack of maturity at some, if not most people, at relationships. Simple as that. However, it seems like certain people have decided to interpret it as an attack because my post was a direct critique on their own behaviour, and really just serves to prove the validity of my argument. That said, I am not the behaviour police. I do not seek to tell you how you should live your own life, and that the closest I will ever come to that is to offer my own opinions about it. I believe you should live your own life as you see fit, because I'd be terribly angry at anyone who tried to tell me how to live mine. Anonymous person, if you are who i think you are, then you know I've always been supportive of you all the time I've known you, and personally I don't really care one jot how you handle your relationships, as long as you're happy. While I'm disappointed you viewed my post that way, as least you reacted in a proper non emotional way.
However, Rebecca's initial response surprised me because the passion of the counter argument far out stripped any possible offense I may have caused in my post, as I know others were too. I have as of yesterday recieved insight into why that is so, and you have no idea how angry I am right now. Not only am I angry, I am disgusted, not to mention hurt, that you would think that I would stoop to such a low level as to make some kind of disguised personal attack at you on a public forum. I don't wash dirty linen in public, and I have absolutely no compunctions against voicing my opinions personally in a frank and direct manner. You could've been mature and asked me privately about it, but instead you decided that you were psychic, and that it had to be about you, because everything is about you. You need to fucking grow up and stop acting like a self absorbed petulant child, because I have had enough of your continued angsty emotional tantrums. You need to re evaluate our friendship very very carefully, because right now I feel the emotional burden of being your friend is too high to warrant maintaining. I'm just sorry it has to come out this way.
Until next time, take care of yourselves, and each other ^^
Well I think this topic should be put to rest. Before it does, I would like to clear up a couple of things.
With regards to me thinking the post was aimed at myself and others, I’m glad you’ve now stated that that isn’t the case. However, I had just told you about that stuff 2 days before and then this post comes out. It was only logical for myself and others to then infer you were referring to past events. And that you indirectly wanted to comment about what I had told you which, in hindsight, of course makes no sense because you are not the sort of person to make stealthy jabs at people. Whilst I know you were trying to be very general, it really does seem like we were directly responsible for your frustration and thus, the post.
However, in light of all this, do know I was never offended by what you have said or took any of it personally. I actually just felt like I didn’t get to tell you enough about us because I was too paranoid a certain someone would overhear us. But to be honest, I kind of wish he did and then it’ll be all out. :p
By the same token, I didn’t get this comment either- “You need to fucking grow up and stop acting like a self absorbed petulant child, because I have had enough of your continued angsty emotional tantrums.” Surely you could have gotten your point across without this.
I wasn't going to reply anymore, but I guess I'll say a final word. As for you thinking that it could be aimed at you, after your reply I though about it and remembered our little conversation, so for you I guess that's understandable.
However, in regards to what i said, I retract nothing. I know it was shocking, and no doubt doubly so because I have a reputation, and for the most part, I am, for being polite, affable and generally congenial in nature. A comment like that seems out of nature simply because, with the exception of a few, no one has seen me truly angry. This is because I normally keep my emotions in check, so I react largely by being cold and distant to the person in question. However, what you're seeing here is a man tested to the limits of his patience and beyond, for this is yet another situation where she has found some reason to be angry or upset at me, in a very long line of percieved offenses spanning over some indeterminable period of time. You know this is unlike me, and you know this is not something I say lightly, if at all. However, you do not truly understand my position, and you will never do so until you have walked in my shoes. However, it is a matter of public record that I, and I alone, bear the brunt of most of her ire. I will say with no trace of falsehood that I have been incredibly patient with her, and those that truly know me know that I can be incredibly patient when I want to be. I personally can't think of anyone else that could've been patient as long as I did. Yet despite the fact that I've been very calm about this in the past, it just never ends, and that there isn't a week that goes by that doesn't end with her being angry or upset at me in some way, despite the fact that no one else found me offensive. There's more I could say but I personally have had enough of this whole childish affair, and that if you wish to talk to me about it we can do so in a more private setting.
It may seem like it was some off the cuff remark spoken in the heat of anger, but I truly did think about what I was saying before I posted that comment. However, I felt that the impact of my words would highlight the seriousness with which I view this whole episode.
i agree that generally females expect that males ask them out as more than friends. there are exceptions where females do ask males out, but i feel that those are rare occassions.
i also feel that it is important to find out whether eg person X likes me before i ask them out. it takes courage to ask someone out, because it's like risking it and putting yourself on the line. and besides, it hurts being rejected. i'm sure many people can relate to not wanting/liking being rejected by someone you really like! some people just can't shrug the rejection off instantly because they really, really liked that person. plus it can make things awkward between the two, which will be sorted out. hopefully. it isn't stupid that people wonder if eg person X likes me - they are usually just contemplating whether they are willing to take the risk to put themself on the line to ask person X out. people have different acceptable risk levels. obviously you have a higher tolerance of just asking someone out, but others have lower tolerance levels of risk. it isn't stupid that they have different acceptable risk levels. and it certainly isn't immature.
on an (un)/related issue: jason, sometimes i do feel that you can be rather blunt with your opinion. although that is ok, sometimes you just harp on about it, which can be rather irritating at times. i'm not saying that you are an irritating person. i know i have faults of my own and i'm sure that you think that i have irritating traits or that i do things that irritate you.
i know of several people that you know of, who find you harping on about a certain opinion which clearly upsets people fairly irritating as well. and it can certainly be embarassing and very awkward.
i dont know about those people, but i don't want to tell you to shut up and stop harping about a certain issue (which for example leads to an argument with rebecca). i don't want to be rude by going, "shut up jase, can you stop going on about it now?" it just makes things awkward. people watching this happen can see it is sooo leading up to an argument, but the argument could have been avoided if one of the parties of the argument (except for the 'bystanders') said that they accepted the other's opinion, but that's just what you think, and go onto another topic.
please dont feel that this is a personal attack on you. i'm telling you this because you are my friend. i just dont want to see/hear you and rebecca arguing any more. although i think some of the arguments cant be avoided or at least worked out, i hope that by telling you the above, you two wont totally be pissed off at each other and just totally ruin 13 yrs of friendship, and/or ruin any future relationships because of things like this.
i concur, anonymous (of post made at 12:01 am)
You're telling me that I can be irritating and offensive, but it's not a personal attack against me?
puh-lease.
Let's face it, it IS a personal attack against me. However, not all personal attacks are bad. Since there wasn't any malice behind it no offense was taken. However, I haven't discussed this issue with anyone who hasn't brought it up, so I don't see how this is especially relevant to the topic at hand. In fact, why the hell are people still talking about this?
Making sure the other person likes you was never something I was complaining about. Not taking the final step and asking the other person, and instead letting the opportunity slip away, was. Anyway, I've had enough of this topic. If anyone wants to talk about it, you know how to contact me.
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